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Pandora's Box | 4542 Grammatical Wizard

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Knadan wrote:
+1



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:08 pm

Knadan | 4294 Community Commissar

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Pandora's Box wrote:+1
Thanks Pandora, I appreciate that.



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:11 pm



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Legal | 5534 Viva La Sovereign

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Read please, Knadan.:
My whole post just got deleted so excuse me if this seems rushed I need to type again.

1) Okay, but why is that religion true? What makes that one so special?

2) Well I wouldn't like it. But why should I? Your argument proves that we created God to make ourselves feel special. We're not special. We're an amazing accident. Why should we need to think we have a purpose?

3) Your lack of knowledge on Stars is quite depressing. When stars explode they release basic elements that create almost everything we see. Look it up, it's fact.

4) Evolution does not say that Iguanas turn into Parrots in several generations. It takes many many many thousands or millions of years for a slight adaptation. Look it up.

5) The Bible is consistent? Do you still follow the rules from the old testament? If people did we'd all be murdering homophobes.

6) Young Earth Creationists are disgusting. Anyone who believes the world was created in 7 days by the click of a finger is dangerous to society. Teaching children these lies makes them stupid and gives them a disadvantage in the world. Religion may not be a lie but creationism IS. End of story.

7) I simply say that I think it would be more amazing if the world was an accident rather than created by intelligence. That's just my preference. No believes or facts there.
However, you really think that morals come from the Bible?
It's human nature to love eachother and care for eachother. Or quite the opposite. To kill and hate eachother. It's just that as the time has gone on, our lives are easier to care for eachother. Do you really think that every rule in the Bible and the 10 commandments is followed today? I didn't think so.

8) Science and God can co-exists. I never said they couldn't. As long as science doesn't contradict the beliefs it's all good. But when it does. Sorry religion.

9) There was literally not a shred of evidence in that video. (that's the wonderful thing about religion, isn't it.) That fact that Earth is in the goldilocks zone is not because of God, it's just a coincidence. There is other planets in goldilocks zones. Does God control them too?

I could give you so much more information about why you're argument is flawed. Please just look it up. You're an intelligent person. I honestly don't see how you think God made all this.

A little (I'm joking it's 2 hours long) video to keep you entertained. Should answer some questions you have about my argument.



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:24 pm



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I saw this quote on youtube. This gives me faith in humanity.

''The title of the discussion is not a statement - it is a question. After all, science is about asking questions. Answers are boring - questions are exciting. Answers are closed; questions invite possibility, investigation, mystery. "Because God did it" is a hollow, lazy, useless explanation (besides being so clearly WRONG); always was, always will be.''



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:28 pm



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Knadan wrote:
I may come up with other points later, but this is what I've got for now.
Although FutureShadow, aren't the beliefs of your later statement generally contradictory to Roman Catholicism?
So what? He's keeping an open mind. Why should his believes be bound by organised religion.



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:32 pm



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Knadan | 4294 Community Commissar

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Legal wrote:
Read please, Knadan.:
My whole post just got deleted so excuse me if this seems rushed I need to type again.

1) Okay, but why is that religion true? What makes that one so special?

2) Well I wouldn't like it. But why should I? Your argument proves that we created God to make ourselves feel special. We're not special. We're an amazing accident. Why should we need to think we have a purpose?

3) Your lack of knowledge on Stars is quite depressing. When stars explode they release basic elements that create almost everything we see. Look it up, it's fact.

4) Evolution does not say that Iguanas turn into Parrots in several generations. It takes many many many thousands or millions of years for a slight adaptation. Look it up.

5) The Bible is consistent? Do you still follow the rules from the old testament? If people did we'd all be murdering homophobes.

6) Young Earth Creationists are disgusting. Anyone who believes the world was created in 7 days by the click of a finger is dangerous to society. Teaching children these lies makes them stupid and gives them a disadvantage in the world. Religion may not be a lie but creationism IS. End of story.

7) I simply say that I think it would be more amazing if the world was an accident rather than created by intelligence. That's just my preference. No believes or facts there.
However, you really think that morals come from the Bible?
It's human nature to love eachother and care for eachother. Or quite the opposite. To kill and hate eachother. It's just that as the time has gone on, our lives are easier to care for eachother. Do you really think that every rule in the Bible and the 10 commandments is followed today? I didn't think so.

8) Science and God can co-exists. I never said they couldn't. As long as science doesn't contradict the beliefs it's all good. But when it does. Sorry religion.

9) There was literally not a shred of evidence in that video. (that's the wonderful thing about religion, isn't it.) That fact that Earth is in the goldilocks zone is not because of God, it's just a coincidence. There is other planets in goldilocks zones. Does God control them too?

I could give you so much more information about why you're argument is flawed. Please just look it up. You're an intelligent person. I honestly don't see how you think God made all this.

A little (I'm joking it's 2 hours long) video to keep you entertained. Should answer some questions you have about my argument.
As much as my body and mind are screaming at me to counter your points, I'm not going to.  Not because you've won, but because this frustrating argument is a poor use of my time and isn't worth it.  
All I'm going to say is that you missed the main point of 3. and you only watched the video, you didn't go do to the article links that go into further depth.



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:35 pm



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Legal | 5534 Viva La Sovereign

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Knadan wrote:
Legal wrote:
Read please, Knadan.:
My whole post just got deleted so excuse me if this seems rushed I need to type again.

1) Okay, but why is that religion true? What makes that one so special?

2) Well I wouldn't like it. But why should I? Your argument proves that we created God to make ourselves feel special. We're not special. We're an amazing accident. Why should we need to think we have a purpose?

3) Your lack of knowledge on Stars is quite depressing. When stars explode they release basic elements that create almost everything we see. Look it up, it's fact.

4) Evolution does not say that Iguanas turn into Parrots in several generations. It takes many many many thousands or millions of years for a slight adaptation. Look it up.

5) The Bible is consistent? Do you still follow the rules from the old testament? If people did we'd all be murdering homophobes.

6) Young Earth Creationists are disgusting. Anyone who believes the world was created in 7 days by the click of a finger is dangerous to society. Teaching children these lies makes them stupid and gives them a disadvantage in the world. Religion may not be a lie but creationism IS. End of story.

7) I simply say that I think it would be more amazing if the world was an accident rather than created by intelligence. That's just my preference. No believes or facts there.
However, you really think that morals come from the Bible?
It's human nature to love eachother and care for eachother. Or quite the opposite. To kill and hate eachother. It's just that as the time has gone on, our lives are easier to care for eachother. Do you really think that every rule in the Bible and the 10 commandments is followed today? I didn't think so.

8) Science and God can co-exists. I never said they couldn't. As long as science doesn't contradict the beliefs it's all good. But when it does. Sorry religion.

9) There was literally not a shred of evidence in that video. (that's the wonderful thing about religion, isn't it.) That fact that Earth is in the goldilocks zone is not because of God, it's just a coincidence. There is other planets in goldilocks zones. Does God control them too?

I could give you so much more information about why you're argument is flawed. Please just look it up. You're an intelligent person. I honestly don't see how you think God made all this.

A little (I'm joking it's 2 hours long) video to keep you entertained. Should answer some questions you have about my argument.
As much as my body and mind are screaming at me to counter your points, I'm not going to.  Not because you've won, but because this frustrating argument is a poor use of my time and isn't worth it.  
All I'm going to say is that you missed the main point of 3. and you only watched the video, you didn't go do to the article links that go into further depth.
Whatever. I'll leave you with this. Religion won't change it's mind.
If you present me with enough evidence or an interesting hypothisis, I WILL CHANGE MY MIND.



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:40 pm



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Pandora's Box | 4542 Grammatical Wizard

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Legal wrote:I saw this quote on youtube. This gives me faith in humanity.

''The title of the discussion is not a statement - it is a question. After all, science is about asking questions. Answers are boring - questions are exciting. Answers are closed; questions invite possibility, investigation, mystery. "Because God did it" is a hollow, lazy, useless explanation (besides being so clearly WRONG); always was, always will be.''
But doesn't the answer, "God did it." bring up the question "How did God do it?" I believe that God and science can coexist and prove each other. Neutral 



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:41 pm

Legal | 5534 Viva La Sovereign

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AHA! I see your point on Part 3 now. THANK YOU KNADAN Wink

The wonderful thing about point 3 is that I have just read a book on it. But the author of that book isn't 100% sure. And that's beautiful.

We're waiting to find out the answer and not jump to an assumption.



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:43 pm



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Pandora's Box wrote:
Legal wrote:I saw this quote on youtube. This gives me faith in humanity.

''The title of the discussion is not a statement - it is a question. After all, science is about asking questions. Answers are boring - questions are exciting. Answers are closed; questions invite possibility, investigation, mystery. "Because God did it" is a hollow, lazy, useless explanation (besides being so clearly WRONG); always was, always will be.''
But doesn't the answer, "God did it." bring up the question "How did God do it?" I believe that God and science can coexist and prove each other. Neutral 
But that's the thing. God is meant to be all powerful. We're not supposed to understand how he did it because he's supposedly more intelligent than us. But yes, ''how did God do it?'' is a very interesting question. If some intelligent creator did do it. I'd love to ask him, not why, but how.



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:45 pm



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Knadan | 4294 Community Commissar

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Legal wrote:But that's the thing. God is meant to be all powerful. We're not supposed to understand how he did it because he's supposedly more intelligent than us. But yes, ''how did God do it?'' is a very interesting question. If some intelligent creator did do it. I'd love to ask him, not why, but how.
For the record, last I checked, nowhere in the Bible does it say humanity isn't allowed to try and figure out how God made things.  That combined, with you're own statement of "I'd love to ask Him, not why, but how." brings us to part of how modern science began.



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:52 pm



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Legal | 5534 Viva La Sovereign

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Knadan wrote:
Legal wrote:But that's the thing. God is meant to be all powerful. We're not supposed to understand how he did it because he's supposedly more intelligent than us. But yes, ''how did God do it?'' is a very interesting question. If some intelligent creator did do it. I'd love to ask him, not why, but how.
For the record, last I checked, nowhere in the Bible does it say humanity isn't allowed to try and figure out how God made things.  That combined, with you're own statement of "I'd love to ask Him, not why, but how." brings us to part of how modern science began.
Because people started to question God.



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:03 pm



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Mad Mike | 4301 Gwendolyn's Minion

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Legal, arrogance is a dangerous thing...

Every human must realise, that no matter how much you learn or how much you know, we can never understand everything. EVERYTHING is relative, even science. It changes over time, and is limited to our comprehension and interpritation. The more we learn, the more questions arise. It is a endless loop of questions.

I'm not saying you have to believe that there is a higher power, but why is it so impossible odd to you? You make it sound like everyone who believes in religion are retarded and irrational. And don't get me wrong, I love science and I'm thinking of actually becoming a scientist. But to think that I can prove or disprove something I do not even understand is arrogant.

Like Knadan said, most revolutionary scientists believed in a God. Even freakin Einstein believed in a "non-personal" God. To say that these people where just deluded, is nothing else but pure arrogance.

Here is philosophical thought that I quite like:
Imagine, that the whole world is a computer program, like the Matrix. If this was true, then it would mean that EVERYTHING we see and learn is nothing more than an illusion and codes of programming.
And lets say that GOD, is actually just the man who created the program. He would then be in a completely different realm of existance beyond our comprehension. He would also have the power to monitor and change ANYTHING in the program.

Why is it so hard to apply this thought to our existance? If we can create artificial universes within programs, then what's to say that OUR universe is not created and monitored from another realm of existance? And that there is a God with unlimited power, not in this universe, but outside it -- outside our laws of physics.

Things like the holographic princible is not more probably than this is, yet why do people 100% discredit religion and not those theories?

Science does not disprove religion. That's is nothing more than a load of dingo's kidneys. (according to the Hitchhikers Guide) The only argument you have is that the existance of a God is improbable, and that is ONLY based on your assumption.

The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy has this to say about God:
"In the beggining, God created the universe. This made alot of people angry and is widely considered to be a bad move..."
I must agree a little on that Razz

Legal wrote:
Because people started to question God.
That is also a load of dingo's kidneys, despite mainstream beliefs. Through history, the leading scientists have usually been religious. A majority of the most famous scientist in history, untill recent times atleast, have been very religious. You don't have to "question" God to have a passion for science, to think that is also arogant.



Last edited by Mad Mike on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:21 pm; edited 1 time in total


on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:16 pm

Legal | 5534 Viva La Sovereign

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You're telling me arrogance is a dangerous thing?

Religion is so ignorant. I'm the one saying that if you give me enough evidence I will trust you. Religion is not willing to change. Science is; I am.

You're totally misunderstanding me, Mike.



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:19 pm



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Okay fair enough my point about questioning God was unnecessary. But people wanted more answers to questions that religion couldn't answer. And so we started discovering.

But just because religion came first doesn't mean it's right. In fact it implies more so that religion is more primitive and obsolete.



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:29 pm



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WOAAAHHH... I do say that a God is improbable. (Not impossible) This, however, is not based in my "assumptions". It's based on clear evidence.



Last edited by Legal on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total


on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:31 pm



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Knadan | 4294 Community Commissar

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Legal wrote:Okay fair enough my point about questioning God was unnecessary. But people wanted more answers to questions that religion couldn't answer. And so we started discovering.

But just because religion came first doesn't mean it's right. In fact it implies more so that religion is more primitive and obsolete.
Just because science didn't come first, that doesn't mean it's always right either. There are plenty of examples of things being "proven" by science, and then lo and behold, it's actually wrong, or at least not completely right.



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:32 pm



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Legal | 5534 Viva La Sovereign

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Knadan wrote:
Legal wrote:Okay fair enough my point about questioning God was unnecessary. But people wanted more answers to questions that religion couldn't answer. And so we started discovering.

But just because religion came first doesn't mean it's right. In fact it implies more so that religion is more primitive and obsolete.
Just because science didn't come first, that doesn't mean it's always right either.  There are plenty of examples of things being "proven" by science, and then lo and behold, it's actually wrong, or at least not completely right.
Because science is willing to change. Scientists are happy when they're wrong because there's more to discover... Religion won't change. It hates being wrong.



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:33 pm



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I'm going to sleep very soon. It's a shame we couldn't speak in person. Online debates frustrate me because you can't get your point across as easy.



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:39 pm



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Then what do you call Martin Luther?



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:39 pm



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Knadan wrote:Then what do you call Martin Luther?
Martin Luther king Jr? One of my idols. I adore the man and think his work was amazing. His religious beliefs made him do good, not contradict science. If he went around saying the Earth is 7 days old and children burn in hell if they don't follow Jesus then I think he may have been a different kinda guy.

Martin Luther the monk seemed like a good guy. He pointed out the flaws in one religion and thought up another (sorry if I'm wrong I don't know much about him)

Maybe you're right on some part about religion changing then. But seriously, if you say that god doesn't exist, religion disagrees. Tell an atheist god does exist and they'll say, "give me evidence and I'll believe you."



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:46 pm



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Legal wrote:You're telling me arrogance is a dangerous thing?

Religion is so ignorant. I'm the one saying that if you give me enough evidence I will trust you. Religion is not willing to change. Science is; I am.

You're totally misunderstanding me, Mike.
Religion in it self can not be arrogant, science in it self can not be arrogant.

Religion changes all the time, you interpret it as you wish. Do Christians as an example have the exact same beliefs as they did in the middle ages? No. Same goes for science.

Neither of them can in themselves be arrogant -- only the people who claim that everyone is stupid if they don't agree with you, are arrogant.

I don't believe that the earth was created in literally 7 days. I believe it is a poetic description, since the message has nothing to do with the scientific details. It was written to adress the spiritual nature of man, science is uninterresting in the context.

Religion does not need to be proved, it is a philsophical thought that you choose to believe. Askin someone why they believe in a religion is like asking someone why they like peotry. Can you say that poetry is stupid because it is unscientific?
Science neither proves or disproves religion, because they usually have little to do with eachother.



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:47 pm

Legal | 5534 Viva La Sovereign

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Mike fair enough you make a good point. And to be honest I'm ending this here. As long as both religion and science are put to the good of humanity I couldn't care less.

I like your poetry analogy though. I just think religion should focus on helping people. Don't take the bible literally and just use it for good. Religion can't explain the laws of the universe in depth and it shouldn't try. Science can. Both can be used for good in their own way.



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:49 pm



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Legal wrote:As long as both religion and science are put to the good of humanity I couldn't care less.

Religion can't explain the laws of the universe in depth and it shouldn't try. Science can. Both can be used for good in their own way.



Well said, I can agree on that Smile

And I'm glad that you could be the bigger man and end the discussion, it's almost midnight here and I could have kept debating for ages XD

It's been fun, but I'm off to bed. Good night everyone!



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:54 pm

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<3 I love debating and sometimes I can get slightly out of hand Wink



on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:57 pm



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