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mini0013xx | 4285 Undaunted Member

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Hey everybody, this is a thread about me and Legal, constantly arguing. As you can see, our ideas are polar opposites of eachother, Legal being a hardcore athiest, and me, being a hardcore creationist. Here are the ground rules for this thread:

Rules:
1) No debates on creation stories, unless if it so happens that it ties in to the argument. (But don't get too carried away with them). We don't need any more of those "God did/didn't create the earth in 6 days" arguments, okay.
2) You must have evidence backing your claim. In other words, no circular logic to proving your point. Only facts. (I will allow the Bible to be a fact book for my case, and the evolution theory a fact book for you, and whichever other books you choose).
3) NO INSULTING!
4) Other people are allowed to comment on ideas, and include extra resources to the argument if they want. But they should not get involved with the main argument, otherwise the whole argument just spirals into a mess. We've seen this before when we've argued about CoD games in the past. Razz
5) No arguments on "What proof do you have that God exists?" because I can clearly say, "What proof do you have that God doesn't exist?" and then we get nowhere.
6) Every argument will be uploaded to a google doc when it is done, and posted on this page, below. Anyway, have fun! You get to attack first! Pick a topic. (Rules may get added to as time goes on.)

Arguments so far:
Did Jesus Exist:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1t79DOeKm9--duaeCucwWZfOIxthwdnApO9KVcnigKJk/edit (Finished)



Last edited by mini0013xx on Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:41 am; edited 2 times in total


on Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:25 pm

Legal | 5418 Viva La Sovereign

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Historical evidence for Jesus being a real person? What is it? I'm genuinely interested in this topic so it makes for more of a discussion than a debate to start with.

Watch the video on Horus and Jesus.



on Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:36 pm



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CWO4anthony321123 | 4517 Legendary Member

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The Bible shows in it time and again that you can start a species with only 2 members. It is scientifically proven that you need at least 40 of the same species to prevent incest witch leads to terrible mental and physical problems. So, if you believe in the Bible, you admit that something you are tout is terrible and is bad created the human race, and that you come from incest. Which against God. This makes a moral paradox and a major conflict with modern science.



on Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:38 pm

Pandora's Box | 4426 Grammatical Wizard

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How can you need at least 40 individuals to create a successful species? Doesn't that disprove everything that evolution stands for?



on Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:46 pm

CWO4anthony321123 | 4517 Legendary Member

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Pandora's Box wrote:How can you need at least 40 individuals to create a successful species? Doesn't that disprove everything that evolution stands for?
It's all about cross breeding. If you have one an animal that is say 99.99 percent chimp, it can still mate with the rest of the group of chimps. Which over the generations, that deviation spreads through the group. This is why evolution takes so long to work.



on Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:04 pm

Pandora's Box | 4426 Grammatical Wizard

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But, unless it can't sexually reproduce with another organism to produce fertile offspring it is still the same species as the other. If a species evolves/diverges from its parent species it'll need to reproduce with its own species.

As far as genetic effects. They will be weeded out through natural selection so the birth defects won't matter. It is almost like random genetic effects, they'll die out and only viable offspring will reproduce.



on Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:29 pm

mini0013xx | 4285 Undaunted Member

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CWO4anthony321123 wrote:The Bible shows in it time and again that you can start a species with only 2 members. It is scientifically proven that you need at least 40 of the same species to prevent incest witch leads to terrible mental and physical problems. So, if you believe in the Bible, you admit that something you are tout is terrible and is bad created the human race, and that you come from incest. Which against God. This makes a moral paradox and a major conflict with modern science.
One at a time. Read the thread rules.



on Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:45 pm

Mad Mike | 4185 Gwendolyn's Minion

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Legal wrote:Historical evidence for Jesus being a real person? What is it? I'm genuinely interested in this topic so it makes for more of a discussion than a debate to start with.
I believe there are around 30 documents that speaks of Jesus, both christian and non christian sources.

Plato only has two sources to prove his excistance, so Jesus is very much historical. Historicians generaly agree that Jesus was a jewish man who preached to the people and was later crussified for disturbing the order. And that is not biased, we went over this in school actually Smile



on Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:05 am

mini0013xx | 4285 Undaunted Member

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Okay, I've waited long enough to reply on this one. It's been a good 3+ days, and I've been researching, and slacking, to get this done. So, I think I've finally gotten my conclusion.

Now, your video starts off with saying that Egyptian mythology is based on astrology, which is for the most part correct.

His analysis on good and evil being equal but opposite forces doesn't work in Judeo-Christian aspects because the Judeo-Christian world (or at least those of us who have actually read a bible) know that the first evil being, and the one who influenced all the rest in some way shape or form (Satan, or Lucifer), was created by God. He has no power over him, and actually, when the time comes, he'll be sent to hell in which he will be burning. (Hell was originally intended for Satan and all those who follow him. Jesus makes it clear that those who are not with God [following him the way he wants you to], then you're very well against him. And if you're against him, you're going to the same place that's meant for Satan. Hell! YAAY! (In all seriousness though, it's a place you don't want to end up. Think about getting burnt by napalm while boiling in a giant pot of extremely hot pig fat. Now times that by 1,000,000. That's not even close to how bad hell is.

Now, Satan has, quite literally, no power over God. The book of Job makes this pretty clear, because Satan actually has to ASK God before he can do anything, despite the fact that he's already been kicked out of heaven. He still has to abide by what God says.

He then goes on later, to say that Jesus is a sun god. I don't think he understands the difference of the words sun and son. The sun is a creation by God, whereas Jesus is the son of God. (Ultimately a part of him. God is a whole confusing topic in itself, consisting of 3 parts and all).

Jesus is not a sun god. If he was, then people who believed in him would believe that the sun is God, and God says a big no no about this back early on in the Old Testament, during the Exodus, and a little bit into the nations of Israel with the major prophets. Here's just one quote:

"And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars - and the heavenly array - do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshipping the things the LORD your God has appointed to all the nations under heaven." (Deuteronomy 4:19)

This makes it pretty clear that God wants the people to stay away from Astrology. Astrology was created by a misunderstanding of the stars.

Furthermore, it would also break one of the commandments (of all the law that was abolished with Jesus, the 10 commandments stayed), and it was to not commit idolatry. Worshipping the sun is a form of "graven image", which is a form of idolatry.

As for the birthdays of the individuals:
Horus was born on December 25th. The date was spread across the western world of that time.
Christians adopted the date as the birth of Christ. (Early Chrsitians adopted a lot of things way back then, typically re-defining pagan symbols into Christian symbols.)
Nobody knows his birthday, but the time of the year that the herders saw Jesus was not in December. No, in december Judea would be raining all over, and the herders wouldn't be able to bring their flocks and such elsewhere.

Now, on to the virgin birth!

Mary was visited by an angel of the lord. He simply told her, "Behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son and shalt call his name JESUS." (Gospel of Luke 1:31) Mary was a virgin, as all the biblical accounts of her say she was. But, nontheless, she conceived him. His parents were Mary, and Joseph. (Though technically, he wasn't the real son of Joseph.)

We're gonna kill two birds with one stone here. Horus's father was Osiris and Isis.

Now, the name Joseph means increaser, and Mary's name means bitter. Osiris's name means god of death, and Isis's name means the throne. Just to make sure that you don't get this confused, the names mean nothing alike, and ARE nothing alike. Let's move on now.

There's different versions of the story from the Egyptian book of the dead, but from what I read, Isis DID have sex with Osiris. Even worse, Isis was Osiris's sister... and she had sex with him while he was DEAD! Excerpt below:

"His sister [Isis] hath protected him..."
"She made light with her feathers, she created air with her wings, and she uttered the death wail for her brother, She raised up the inactive members of who's heart was still, she drew from his essence, she made an heir, she reared the child in the lonliness, and the place where he was not known, and he grew in strength and stature, and his hand was mighty in the house of Keb. The company of gods rejoiced, rejoiced at the coming Horus, the son of Osiris, who's heard was firm, the triumphant, the son of Isis, the heir of Osiris."
-Hymn to Osiris, Egyptian book of the dead

Next is the birthdays. The video claims that Jesus was born on December 25th. Jesus wasn't born on December 25th though. That was a pagan holiday originally, (probably the Horus one, after all it had influenced Greece and Rome). All we can say about Jesus's birth is that it cannot be in the winter. Winter in the land of Canaan (Israel) is typically... uh... very wet and rainy. This wet and rainy weather wouldn't have allowed for the shepards to bring their flocks and sheeps with them to go to Jesus's house in Bethleham. (Note that he doesn't stay in Bethleham for a while, but moves down to Egypt, and then later to a Jewish city named Nazareth - which actually during that time scale fulfilled a few prophecies about him right there. All of these were involuntary actions that he had no control over, where his parents would bring him.)

Speaking of Shepards though, Horus was never visited by angels or shepards.

There was also no star for Horus. Just an FYI, his birth wasn't really marked by anybody, or known by many really. No signs at all for his birth. Referenced here: "She reared the child in lonliness..." - nobody saw Horus being born - except for Isis - and nobody witnessed or knew him while he grew up. "... and the place where he was not known, and he grew in strength and stature."

Horus had more than 12 followers. Possibly 16 or 20. However, Jesus had more followers too. He had 12 original disciples, but there were more following him. At one point, Jesus had thousands of people following him, however for other reasons that to know that he was the son of God. They more likely followed him because they wanted stuff from him. "Jesus answered them and said, "Veryily, verily, I say unto you, ye seek me not because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled." (Gospel of John 6:26, King James Translation)

Horus was never baptized. Jesus was.

Horus did not walk on water. The Egyptian book of the dead mentions none of this, as far as I can tell.

Horus and Jesus DID perform miracles, but of different scopes and such.

Horus didn't bring Osiris back to life. Jesus DID bring Lazarus back to life (and himself too.) [Lazarus means "God is helper", so there is still no correlation between Osiris and Lazarus at all].

Also, Horus was not crucified, or resurrected, he did not die for anybody's sins.

Jesus's coming was to do this: fulfill the law of Moses (which no human had ever done, or has done. Jesus is the only one who has completed it in full.), die for our sins (specifically so that people wouldn't have to transfer their sins to an animal by sacrificing it to God. God didn't like the idea in the first place, and would rather people not to sin. He actually speaks this to the people.) and then get resurrected so that his followers would truly believe. In the place of the Mosaic law, now in order to get to heaven, all you'd have to do is believe in God, and when you sinned, repent.

He also visited them some times after his resurrection, and when he finally rose into heaven, the people who followed him were convinced to spread the word. They spread the gospel to anybody and everybody, and Christianity spread like crazy, soon reaching Rome itself, and making it the official Roman religion. (However, Catholicism developed after that, which is well known for it's corruption of the scriptures. It also contradicts itself in more ways then one, and many Christians don't even look at Catholicism as a real branch of Christianity.) These apostles were willing to die to spread the message across, and of course, most of them did, save for one. John, who later wrote the book of Revelation, the well known last book of the bible. (One of the many books that had end time scriptures in it. The bible is actually 30% end time prophecy, but it gets overlooked in many churches today).

These apostles have their own book, the book of ACTS, and one of the apostles, Paul, wrote letters to many churches which we now know as the bulk of the new testament, consisting of the books of  Romans, 1st and 2nd Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, 1st and 2nd Timothy, Titus, Philemon and Hebrews. There are other apostle's letters too, including the general epistles of James, 1st and 2nd of Peter, 1st 2nd and 3rd of John, and Jude.

Here's some other things linking Horus to Osiris, and differing the Jesus - Osiris story.

"Thy son Horus is firmly placed on thy throne."
-Horus taking Osiris's throne.
"... and I am Horus who taketh possession of his throne for him."
-Jesus doesn't take the throne of God. He stands by his throne, and gives forgiveness to those who believed.
"9. Horus - the great god"
-texts relating to the weighing of the heart of Ani, Egyptian book of the dead
-Jesus is never mentioned (at least not in the gospels) as the great god. He is the son of God, a piece of God. The Father judges, the Son forgives. The father is most prelavent in the Old Testament, though he makes his appearances in the new testament too.
"Horus, the son of Isis" ('nuff said there).
-The SPEECH OF HORUS TO OSIRIS IN INTRODUCING ANI TO THEM

Lastly, here's some extra evidence for the existance of Jesus Christ.

Thallus wrote about Jesus. His works are so old that they don't really exist anymore, but somebody quoted him. I believe that Thallus wrote about Jesus's life, however his writings, like much of Plato's, are all gone.

Tacitus wrote about him. Tacitus is a really well known and trusted ancient historian, who speaks of Jesus in one of his books - in which he writes that Jesus lived, preach, and was crucified in Judea by Pontius Pilate, who was the executioner over Judea, Samaria, and Idumaea.

I don't wish to place any more names down, but plenty of more names are located in source 6 below.

Thank you for reading, if you have any counter evidence, then please state it. If not, then this is closed with an accurate statement that he is real.

Sources:

Source 1: The Holy Bible
Source 2: The Egyptian Book of the Dead
Source 3: http://stupidevilbastard.com/2005/01/ending_the_myth_of_horus/ (Overview of topics)
Source 4: http://www.behindthename.com/name/isis (Isis's name meaning)
Source 5: http://www.babynamewizard.com/baby-name/boy/osiris (Osiris's name meaning)
Source 6: http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside-the-bible/ (Extra biblical evidence of Jesus's existence)



on Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:11 pm

mini0013xx | 4285 Undaunted Member

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CWO4anthony321123 wrote:The Bible shows in it time and again that you can start a species with only 2 members. It is scientifically proven that you need at least 40 of the same species to prevent incest witch leads to terrible mental and physical problems. So, if you believe in the Bible, you admit that something you are tout is terrible and is bad created the human race, and that you come from incest. Which against God. This makes a moral paradox and a major conflict with modern science.
I know I said I wasn't supposed to answer this question, but you know what, whatever.

I'm not quite sure about this question, but I think it has something to do with the Holy Spirit of God being in people back in those days.

Basically, through this, people could probably think better, and no doubt had longer lives.

Now, that anti-incest law is a protection law for the people of Israel. (But there is somethings, specifically mother - son or father - daughter relations) that he considers abominations.

These incest laws are part of the protection laws, much like those which don't allow you to eat of shellfish and pigs because they're unclean, and to stay away from the sick because they're also unclean. (Which makes sense).

At some point in time (either before or after the flood. I forget), God said his holy spirit would no longer be in man. The effects of this would be complete when men did not live longer than 120 years. Back before the flood, the longest living person lived 969 years old, and the youngest recorded was Enoch, who lived 365 (though he didn't live throughout his whole life - he actually ascended into heaven early).

This prophecy of people living to only 120 years actually wasn't complete when Moses wrote the book of Genesis, because it's recorded in later books that he died at around age 130, same with his brother Aaron.

Now, because the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve only had eachother, and had the Holy Spirit within them still, they would be able to do such things. (Also, how would they?)

Next, when the great flood happened, and Noah, his wife, his 3 sons and their 3 wives were the only ones left, they had to do the same thing. And they could, because they were still charged with the Holy Spirit. (Though after the flood was when it was when the Holy Spirit began to leave the people).

This happened slowly, generation after generation after generation.

That's my look on it, though I haven't actually seen any evidence to back my claim at all.

Though, wanna know something funny? The Human DNA sequence, I remember watching a documentary that actually spoke about the human DNA sequence being confirmed that there was a common 2 people in mankind's origin. And that'd be right. (Right twice, actually, with the creation and the flood).

That was actually a tough question to tackle though, and I HOPE I got that right too.



Last edited by mini0013xx on Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:56 am; edited 1 time in total


on Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:51 pm

001 Contrite Mediation | 4366 The Floaty Green Dude

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mini0013xx wrote:However, Catholicism developed after that, which is well known for it's corruption of the scriptures.
Corruption? How has the Catholic church corrupted the Bible?
mini0013xx wrote:It also contradicts itself in more ways then one
Once again, please explain how the Catholic faith contradicts itself. I find the belief system of the Catholic church to be the most grounded in the reasons for its beliefs.
mini0013xx wrote: and many Christians don't even look at Catholicism as a real branch of Christianity.
Define many, because I'm pretty sure that 54.5% of all Christians call themselves Catholic. And whoever says that Catholocism isn't a branch of Christianity is intolerant and not correctly following the teachings of Christ (every religion has its extremists).



on Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:50 am

mini0013xx | 4285 Undaunted Member

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001 Contrite Mediation wrote:
mini0013xx wrote:However, Catholicism developed after that, which is well known for it's corruption of the scriptures.
Corruption? How has the Catholic church corrupted the Bible?
mini0013xx wrote:It also contradicts itself in more ways then one
Once again, please explain how the Catholic faith contradicts itself. I find the belief system of the Catholic church to be the most grounded in the reasons for its beliefs.
mini0013xx wrote: and many Christians don't even look at Catholicism as a real branch of Christianity.
Define many, because I'm pretty sure that 54.5% of all Christians call themselves Catholic. And whoever says that Catholocism isn't a branch of Christianity is intolerant and not correctly following the teachings of Christ (every religion has its extremists).
I remember a quote from a medieval era person who had known and read the Latin Vulgate and believed in it. But when he went and read the new testament in Greek (he knew more than one language), he wrote something about it. "Either this isn't the gospel, or we aren't Christians."

Teachings of things like pergatory is bad. Also, stating that the pope is infallable (when in fact the pope is a man) is another thing, creating - in a sense - idolatry. Also, icons. I don't really need to get into this, but I don't like the idea of having dead people praying for me.

Furthermore, the Catholic church - when in power - is always immensly harmful to it's populations, it's very oppressive. What kinds of fruit does it make? Is it good fruit or bad fruit? Oppression seems like a bad fruit to me.

There's quite a few people who don't believe Catholicism is a branch. I understand that in the end they believe in the same thing as the protestants and non-protestant others, but still. Maybe it's just because I just know a lot about history to make a simple dislike of the idea.

As for calling it against what Jesus said, he tells us to discern from things that are and aren't. He tells us not to hate people, but to hate the idea and actions in which they do things. (This includes a group, however I don't hate catholics, I hate the whole idea of the church and how it functions).



on Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:04 am

001 Contrite Mediation | 4366 The Floaty Green Dude

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mini0013xx wrote:
001 Contrite Mediation wrote:Corruption? How has the Catholic church corrupted the Bible?
Once again, please explain how the Catholic faith contradicts itself. I find the belief system of the Catholic church to be the most grounded in the reasons for its beliefs.
Define many, because I'm pretty sure that 54.5% of all Christians call themselves Catholic. And whoever says that Catholocism isn't a branch of Christianity is intolerant and not correctly following the teachings of Christ (every religion has its extremists).
I remember a quote from a medieval era person who had known and read the Latin Vulgate and believed in it. But when he went and read the new testament in Greek (he knew more than one language), he wrote something about it. "Either this isn't the gospel, or we aren't Christians."

Teachings of things like pergatory is bad. Also, stating that the pope is infallable (when in fact the pope is a man) is another thing, creating - in a sense - idolatry. Also, icons. I don't really need to get into this, but I don't like the idea of having dead people praying for me.

Furthermore, the Catholic church - when in power - is always immensly harmful to it's populations, it's very oppressive. What kinds of fruit does it make? Is it good fruit or bad fruit? Oppression seems like a bad fruit to me.

There's quite a few people who don't believe Catholicism is a branch. I understand that in the end they believe in the same thing as the protestants and non-protestant others, but still. Maybe it's just because I just know a lot about history to make a simple dislike of the idea.

As for calling it against what Jesus said, he tells us to discern from things that are and aren't. He tells us not to hate people, but to hate the idea and actions in which they do things. (This includes a group, however I don't hate catholics, I hate the whole idea of the church and how it functions).
The first English version of the Bible was written by followers of the Church of Enland (not the Catholic church), hence the name King James Version.

Why do you believe that teaching purgatory is bad? And why is praying for intercession on behalf of the saints bad?

...the church is harmful to its population? Have you ever heard of a hospital that is named after a saint? The funding for those hospitals comes from the Catholic church or organizations affiliated with the Catholic church. And not to mention organizations such as Catholic Relief Services, St. Vincent de Paul Society, and Catholic Charities USA, which is the 5th largest charity in the United States. The world and the church have changed since medieval Europe; you can't base your arguments off of what the church was like 500 years ago.



on Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:44 am

mini0013xx | 4285 Undaunted Member

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001 Contrite Mediation wrote:
mini0013xx wrote:I remember a quote from a medieval era person who had known and read the Latin Vulgate and believed in it. But when he went and read the new testament in Greek (he knew more than one language), he wrote something about it. "Either this isn't the gospel, or we aren't Christians."

Teachings of things like pergatory is bad. Also, stating that the pope is infallable (when in fact the pope is a man) is another thing, creating - in a sense - idolatry. Also, icons. I don't really need to get into this, but I don't like the idea of having dead people praying for me.

Furthermore, the Catholic church - when in power - is always immensly harmful to it's populations, it's very oppressive. What kinds of fruit does it make? Is it good fruit or bad fruit? Oppression seems like a bad fruit to me.

There's quite a few people who don't believe Catholicism is a branch. I understand that in the end they believe in the same thing as the protestants and non-protestant others, but still. Maybe it's just because I just know a lot about history to make a simple dislike of the idea.

As for calling it against what Jesus said, he tells us to discern from things that are and aren't. He tells us not to hate people, but to hate the idea and actions in which they do things. (This includes a group, however I don't hate catholics, I hate the whole idea of the church and how it functions).
The first English version of the Bible was written by followers of the Church of Enland (not the Catholic church), hence the name King James Version.

Why do you believe that teaching purgatory is bad? And why is praying for intercession on behalf of the saints bad?

...the church is harmful to its population? Have you ever heard of a hospital that is named after a saint? The funding for those hospitals comes from the Catholic church or organizations affiliated with the Catholic church. And not to mention organizations such as Catholic Relief Services, St. Vincent de Paul Society, and Catholic Charities USA, which is the 5th largest charity in the United States. The world and the church have changed since medieval Europe; you can't base your arguments off of what the church was like 500 years ago.
I'm not saying it's all that bad now. But back then, when they had the power, they abused it quite a lot. And whenever a Catholic regime with full power was risen, they have had massive genocides in their populace.

However, this may not reflect the modern church, as it HAS changed. Though I do remember that one of the older churches supported nazi germany during world war 2, and I believe the pope before this one that was elected was an ex nazi. (my facts on this last one is not confirmed however).

But as long as they keep their peace, I'm fine with that.

Telling a dead person to pray for you a) won't work and b) is technically a form of necromancy. I can't say that with the most confidence, but I would rather pray for myself, thank you.

The english version of the Catholic Vulgate came out after the KJV, yes. I own like... 3 KJV's in my house, 2 of which are in my room. The man I was referring to could read both Latin and Greek.

Also, changing up the gospel is a BIG no no.

I know they've done much good in the world, but they've also done much bad which makes me question their legitimacy.



on Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:44 am

Legal | 5418 Viva La Sovereign

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Seriously not in the mood for reading all this. But guys, please keep any theological debates in THIS THREAD ONLY.



on Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:19 pm



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Mad Mike | 4185 Gwendolyn's Minion

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mini0013xx wrote:
Regarding what you said about icons.

It is definately not a branch of christianity, orthodox chruches have saints and icons aswell, and they are closest to the original christianity if anything.

So you would rather pray for yourself? That's alright, but are you saying that it's bad if you ask a priest or close friend to pray for you?
People pray for eachother in every church. And the idea of christianity is that you are still alive, even after you die. So why can't you ask someone closer to God, like maybe the apostles, to pray for you?
How is that worse than asking a priest to pray for you?

I don't agree with alot in the chatholic church, but I think it's pretty legit now. Although they were messed up before in the middle ages though, with the popes going around and having sex orgies and all that...



on Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:10 pm

mini0013xx | 4285 Undaunted Member

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Mad Mike wrote:
Regarding what you said about icons.

It is definately not a branch of christianity, orthodox chruches have saints and icons aswell, and they are closest to the original christianity if anything.

So you would rather pray for yourself? That's alright, but are you saying that it's bad if you ask a priest or close friend to pray for you?
People pray for eachother in every church. And the idea of christianity is that you are still alive, even after you die. So why can't you ask someone closer to God, like maybe the apostles, to pray for you?
How is that worse than asking a priest to pray for you?

I don't agree with alot in the chatholic church, but I think it's pretty legit now. Although they were messed up before in the middle ages though, with the popes going around and having sex orgies and all that...
I understand your points. I don't mind the Catholic church now, they've had their dent in history. And it's quite a massive one.

But anyway, I don't want this thread to be filled with a pro-con Catholic church argument. The thread is for me and legal who have opposing views to brawl it out, with others on either side to help the arguments. (However they must be on topic).

In any case, I'm waiting for Legal's reply.



on Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:29 pm

mini0013xx | 4285 Undaunted Member

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Legal wrote:Seriously not in the mood for reading all this. But guys, please keep any theological debates in THIS THREAD ONLY.
All theological debates eh? Perhaps a google doc for every one of them? Eh? Wink

Anyway, I'm waiting on your reply. So when you can, read up on the post, then state a reply. If you have counter evidence, supply your post with sources. And take your time. It took me 3 whole days. Razz



on Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:31 pm

Mad Mike | 4185 Gwendolyn's Minion

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mini0013xx wrote:

And take your time. It took me 3 whole days. Razz
I tip my hat to you good sir Wink
It is a very interesting subject though.



on Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:40 pm

001 Contrite Mediation | 4366 The Floaty Green Dude

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Contrite's Last Word:
mini0013xx wrote:Though I do remember that one of the older churches supported nazi germany during world war 2, and I believe the pope before this one that was elected was an ex nazi. (my facts on this last one is not confirmed however).
Pope Benedict XVI was recruited by Nazis in a mandatory government draft at the age of 16, and he became a helper at a anti-aircraft battery defending a BMW plant. A year later he joined civil service (also against his will) and dug anti-tank ditches on the Austria-Hungary border. At the end of 1944, he was forced to join the Army but deserted around May of 1945 before his division was sent into combat. USA Article

TL;DR: He was drafted by the government and ditched before the fighting started. He didn't like Nazis.



on Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:52 am

mini0013xx | 4285 Undaunted Member

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001 Contrite Mediation wrote:Contrite's Last Word:
mini0013xx wrote:Though I do remember that one of the older churches supported nazi germany during world war 2, and I believe the pope before this one that was elected was an ex nazi. (my facts on this last one is not confirmed however).
Pope Benedict XVI was recruited by Nazis in a mandatory government draft at the age of 16, and he became a helper at a anti-aircraft battery defending a BMW plant. A year later he joined civil service (also against his will) and dug anti-tank ditches on the Austria-Hungary border. At the end of 1944, he was forced to join the Army but deserted around May of 1945 before his division was sent into combat. USA Article

TL;DR: He was drafted by the government and ditched before the fighting started. He didn't like Nazis.
Thanks for clearing that up. As I had said before, I didn't have a real resource for the that one I posted. Thank you.



on Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:08 am

001 Contrite Mediation | 4366 The Floaty Green Dude

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mini0013xx wrote:Thanks for clearing that up. As I had said before, I didn't have a real resource for the that one I posted. Thank you.
No problem Very Happy



on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:16 am

mini0013xx | 4285 Undaunted Member

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Come on Legal! Quit being lazy and just reply!



on Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:00 am

Legal | 5418 Viva La Sovereign

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mini0013xx wrote:Come on Legal! Quit being lazy and just reply!
Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh



on Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:45 am



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Legal | 5418 Viva La Sovereign

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All that I can say is that a pretty interesting part of the video is when it mentions how the Star 'Sirius' aligns with the '3 Kings' in Orions belt.

Now I know you say that his Birthday was not on the 25th of December. I've found from here...

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/how-december-25-became-christmas/

... that the 25th of December arose as his birthday to follow with some Roman traditions.

I also think this is very interesting

http://youtu.be/Hg2nB5mrZbE?t=6m54s

I don't really have much to say about it to be honest. You make a good case for a lot of it.



on Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:54 am



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